RE:Voyeurism

CodeBare wrote:

So instead I'll just leave the above link here and say that just because someone isn't aware that you're victimizing them doesn't mean it's OK for you to do it. It's not OK to be a peeping tom so long as you don't get caught. Not being caught and punished does not make your wrongdoings acceptable. Folks who do this sort of the thing are the same sort of people that work at a restaurant and spit (or worse) in people's food. It's wrong. Do you want someone spitting in your food because it's OK if you don't know about it? Does "no harm no foul" sound legitimate to you in that scenario?

We're talking about two different things here. If a person is a voyeur but doesn't make an ass of himself (or, more rarely, herself), I don't much care what goes on inside their heads. I can't control that, it has no impact on me. And getting a sexual thrill out of seeing somebody naked isn't something a person can always control, particularly if they're new to nudism. If all they're getting out of being naked in public is that sexual thrill, then they'll soon find that there's no place for them in our culture. But I'll try to give them the opportunity to grow out of it.

Spitting on somebody's food may actually have an impact on a customer's health. (Think of all the people who have COVID but are asymptomatic.) And it's not something a waitperson does involuntarily. It's always clear intent to disrespect.

I do agree that, even if there's no health danger involved, spitting on somebody's food as a sign of disrespect is a weird and childish way of showing displeasure. Their mommas should have taught them better manners.

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RE:Voyeurism

There's a difference though, Woodsman21, between seeing someone beautiful and finding yourself attracted/aroused by it naturally, and specifically going to a place just TO get aroused from viewing others. That's a peep show, or akin to softcore pornography. It is disrespectful and to do it to a bunch of non-consenting folks is wrong.

Sexual arousal by itself is not the same as voyeurism.

This is a matter of getting your sexual jollies the right way (with consent!) and in the right place (not a non-sexual venue). Not of just being a human being with a functional reproductive drive.

You may not mind being used for the purpose, and that's fine, more power to you. They don't know that, though, which means despite your consent being given - they're assuming they are operating without it. That or they've deluded themselves into thinking all nudists are perfectly OK with being ogled for the sexual gratification of others because, hey, if you're naked that MUST mean you're asking for it! (SARCASM).

Honestly, you have expressed interest in helping women not be abused or mistreated by creepy guys. You wear a safety pin to show it. Women (and men) absolutely have the right to be nude without being objectified or abused for it. I'm sure you've heard of the "NotAskingForIt" campaign? This is absolutely included in that. Without consent, there is most definitely harm being caused - even if it's not known at the time. The simple truth is that engaging in voyeurism with non-consenting people is an intent to disrespect, and to victimize.

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RE:Voyeurism

CodeBare wrote:

There's a difference though, Woodsman21, between seeing someone beautiful and finding yourself attracted/aroused by it naturally, and specifically going to a place just TO get aroused from viewing others..

The point I was making about the difference between a person who, while chatting innocently with a woman, finds himself suddenly struck with her beauty in a way that sparks some lust, and the waiter who goes out of their way to spit in her food. It's all about intent.

I don't think we're that far apart. I mean, I've done this thing about innocently chatting with a woman who's fully clothed and finding her smile or the touch of her hand a little more than simply friendly. First, I have to ask myself if I'm just reading too much into it (and I usually am). If the answer is "No, I'm not" then I make sure that we both understand the boundaries ... I'm married, I don't want to take this farther. Or she's married or in a serious relationship, and neither one of us wants to fuck that up. Since we're both adults, we respect those boundaries and proceed to have a fulfilling relationship on a platonic scale. But I'm not going to forbid myself from noting what a wonderful person she is, and enjoying every minute of our company, and wondering if, had our circumstances had been different, whether something more intimate might have grown from it.

There's a poet who said that he'd fallen in love with hundreds of women, but that he was enough of a gentleman to not let a single one of them know it. I'm kind of like that.

I could see the same thing happening if we were both naked. The only issue then would be if our nudity was the cause of that attraction, and if we were using that nudity to advance it. In that case, it would definitely stray into exhibitionism or voyeurism, and departing from the ideals of nudism.

As for the guys that we're worried about, they know who they are, and we know who they are. They're the ones who objectivize women to the point where a woman's feelings toward them have any importance to them at all. They're only interested in the women's bodies, and the effect that the women's bodies have on them. Everything else is just a masquerade.

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RE:Voyeurism

To woodsman post 51. As you said, staring at someone for sexual reasons is the definition f voyeur. So I dont think you staring at someone for something you admire about their body when its non sexual, is considered Voyeur. The hiccup here is, are others around the pool - or the person themselves, aware that you're admiring their muscles or tatoos or what have you and not checking them out due to sexual thoughts of your own. I'm going to guess that the majority of people who see you checking out another person are going to see that as creepy/inappropriate, even if your intention were truly above board. So as common sense would suggest, its best not to stare at someone too long because it will be noticed and likely misinterpreted whether your intentions were sincere OR whether they were naughty.

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RE:Voyeurism

I agree with that. As for commenting on tattoos, I don't see a problem with that. They're meant to be seen, and often meant to be conversation starters. But if the people that Mr. Newby is talking to feel that he's coming on too strong or hitting on them, that that's a problem he'll have to address.

But part of the problem is that that person might not let Mr. Newby know that he's coming across that way. Instead, they carry their opinion of him away with them forever, and leave him clueless that he's crossed a line. So a word of admonishment might be in order.

Note that everything I've just said holds true whether the people involved are naked or not. But since women in a nudist situation are already perceiving themselves as more vulnerable naked than clothed, they may be more reluctant to call out improper behavior. Instead, they just stop coming to nude social encounters.

Let's face it. Newcomers are going to stare. Very little of that is true voyeurism. Mostly, it's curiosity about what human bodies look like, and what the people inhabiting them are like. The only way to find out their intentions is to try to interact with them. If they don't want to engage in normal conversation, or they sit on the sidelines and just gawk, that's a clue that they're just out to ogle nekkid people, and somebody has to call them out...either somebody associated with the club or resort, or a respect person at the nude beach or swimming hole.

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RE:Voyeurism

I completely agree with your reply and would like to add not to get the excitement of a voyeuristic behavior mixed up with the excitement of being naked with another individual regardless of gender. Especially with someone new to practicing nudism. It can be hard to tell the two apart in the beginning.

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RE:Voyeurism

I am a nudist but also a voyeur and exhibitionist. So is my husband. We spend most of our time at home nude because we are most comfortable that way.
But we also like to look at others and be looked at. We enjoy nudist beaches and they are better because we are surrounded by other nude bodies. A naked body is a beautiful thing and we should be encouraged to embrace that thought

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RE:Voyeurism

I am a nudist but also a voyeur and exhibitionist. So is my husband. We spend most of our time at home nude because we are most comfortable that way.But we also like to look at others and be looked at. We enjoy nudist beaches and they are better because we are surrounded by other nude bodies. A naked body is a beautiful thing and we should be encouraged to embrace that thought

I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a sexual thrill out of either looking at naked people or being naked in front of other people, any more than you get pleasure from either listening to somebody play music or from playing music for other people. The line is only crossed when you're doing it in such a way as to make other people uncomfortable with your actions, when you're putting them in a situation where they don't want to be in.

So if I'm in an environment where want to play my guitar and people want to listen to me, but other people just want peace and quiet, it's my job to find a place for me and my fans to play without disturbing the rest of the people around. Similarly, if you want to leer openly at people and act in a way that people know you're leering at them, you find people who enjoy being leered at, and enjoy each other's company while leaving other people in peace.

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RE:Voyeurism

I wanted to discuss a blurry line for myself with nudism and sexuality. Part of what I enjoy so much about being a nudist is being able to see other men naked. This is clearly voyeurism but isn't necessarily a sexual voyeurism, but rather an intense appreciation/fascination. Of course, sometimes this leads to arousal or sexual exploration with other nudists who consent. I wonder if anyone else feels this push and pull of desire of wanting to see other men naked - not always in a sexual or erotic way - but just to be able to gaze and stare without fear of judgement. And furthermore how that fits into a nudist lifestyle as both platonic non-sexual experiences and as an entry point to sexual exploration.

Well part of being nude is to be seen nude isnt it? I appreciate that some enjoy to see me naked and some enjoy be me to be seen naked.
I love to see people naked either friends that feel comfortable enough or strangers enjoying the same things as myself. Isnt that exhibitionism and voyeurism ?
For myself yes that has wandered across to sexual exploration on occasions also.

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RE:Voyeurism

Calidablue wrote:
IWell part of being nude is to be seen nude isnt it? I appreciate that some enjoy to see me naked and some enjoy be me to be seen naked.

Well, not really. Consider this: you are walking in the woods and see a nice pond that you'd like to swim in. Would it make a difference to you whether there were other naked people in the pond, too?

Would you go to that pool expressly to be naked in front of them and to see them naked? Would you swim there if there was nobody around? A nudist or naturist would, but an exhibitionist or voyeur would see no point to it.

There's a distinction that has to be made about nudism, the pleasure of being naked whether you have company or not, and social nudism, which obviously requires other people. Not all nudists are social nudists. And not all social nudists are exhibitionists or voyeurs. Social nudists like seeing each other enjoy their nudity, and they appreciate beauty when they see it, but they're not getting a sexual thrill out of it.

I love to see people naked either friends that feel comfortable enough or strangers enjoying the same things as myself. Isnt that exhibitionism and voyeurism ?

Nope. If you need to see other people, or need to have other people, in order to be sexually aroused, that's voyeurism or exhibitionism .

For myself yes that has wandered across to sexual exploration on occasions also.

And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's mutual and consensual. Same as if you had clothes on. The laws of proper social interaction are exactly the same.

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