RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

Andy I see what you are trying to do. The quote of your statement is exactly proof of what I described before not going to try to respond. You dont really want to hear a response.

I really do read your posts carefully and try to understand your logic or reasoning, and I can't. If you've experience discrimination, how can you justify it? And if you justify discrimination, how can you not accept it against yourself, if not now, than when your situation slightly changes? Getting criticized for questions and clarification reminds me of when I was growing up in the evangelical church. I was never a rebel, but even as a young kid I'd ask questions out of a deep curiosity. I'd compare what I learned from week to week and express where I felt anxiety in the conflict of values. I was told if I asked questions I didn't have enough faith.

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RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

Andy I see what you are trying to do. The quote of your statement is exactly proof of what I described before not going to try to respond. You dont really want to hear a response.I really do read your posts carefully and try to understand your logic or reasoning, and I can't. If you've experience discrimination, how can you justify it? And if you justify discrimination, how can you not accept it against yourself, if not now, than when your situation slightly changes? Getting criticized for questions and clarification reminds me of when I was growing up in the evangelical church. I was never a rebel, but even as a young kid I'd ask questions out of a deep curiosity. I'd compare what I learned from week to week and express where I felt anxiety in the conflict of values. I was told if I asked questions I didn't have enough faith.

I'm still confused here in how you're speaking for me without me being to relate to what you're saying. We obviously won't get anywhere, but the fact that we've both engaged I believe is proof that we care. I remain open to understanding and imagine someone reading this has insight into both our perspectives. In any case I wish you well.

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RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

homeclothesfree post #30...

Unfortunately, that's the way I interpret things on the internet. I read things at face / literal value because I cannot tell the level of seriousness from someone (can't read body language, vocal tones, etc).

I don't believe your comparison is accurate. The NFL banned an object (coolers), not people (single men). A more accurate comparison would have been the NFL banning anyone who identified as a tailgater or a "cooler user" from even going to the games. I am less concerned about banning things, though it's still not targeting the root issue, as I am people.

Certain retail outlet ban children from entering their property without an adult or in some cases at all. Does that mean they don't like children or think all children are bad. No of course not. But as a business it is their choice.

I think it's understandable why nudist resorts would ban children or require them to be accompanied by an adult. The law is more gray regarding children. I don't think children have legal rights like adults do, just some legal protections. And discrimination for being children I don't think is one of them. Furthermore, the line between a nude child and child pornography is very gray in the law. And should anything happen involving a child, things get very sticky very quickly especially regarding who takes responsibility legally. Since the law does not protect discrimination against children (for being children), we can't say it's discriminatory to ban children.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by single men not being a legally protected class in the nudist world. Being single and being a guy both have nothing to do with their nudist reputation (at least, it should not, because neither have anything to do with nudism at all). Therefore, single men have (or should have) just as much freedom to be a nudist and accepted as a nudist as any other person providing they uphold the values of nudism.

Finally I don't know of any working nudist resort venue that bans single men outright.

I know a few , but I won't name them. Their requirement is that men can only make reservations as a couple. So whether or not a man who brings a platonic friend who is a woman satisfies the definition of "couple", I don't know. And to be fair, requiring men to bring a woman, but not women to bring a man, is still discriminatory IMO. It's not as bad as banning single men outright, but it still perpetuates the idea that single men cannot be trusted in a nudist resort without a woman babysitting him. Again, from my experience, a large majority of single men act decent in a nudist resort... at least in the resorts that I frequent. There are a couple bad apples but they are few and far between. And the resorts do a good job at getting them out of there and letting other resorts know they are bad news.

I do know one specific place that bans single men outright, but it's not really a "nudist" resort. It's more a swinger resort. Still, they allow single women, so my argument remains in tact even for the swinger resort.

If as a single man I was barred from a specific venue without cause I would not go back but I would not choose to label every other venue as having the same intention or actions.

That's fair. And I think that's a reasonable approach. Labeling all other venues like that would be similar to the venue who labeled all single men as "like that" by deciding to ban them: stereotyping and generalizing. However, I still think it is a debate worth visibility among nudist resorts.

PS There are gay clothing optional venues that only allow gay and bi men and women no transgender or gender non conforming people are allowed.

But they advertise themselves as exactly that (or at least they should). Furthermore, I believe these might be safe spaces for LGBT people to get away from heteronormative nudism and to embrace minority sexualities. And IMO that's fine if that's what they're doing. Though, I question if it's a "nudist" venue because they are catering to people of specific sexualities, and nudism is supposed to be entirely separate from sex. But one could counter-argue with instances of clothed LGBT venues. I don't know, TBH. I don't like they ban transgender people, though. Transgender people can be gay/bi, too, and therefore banning them means they are not actually an LGBT venue either (the T stands for transgender... so you cannot possibly be LGBT if you exclude transgender people). So now that I think about it, the whole concept sounds very problematic to me.

I think single men just tend to complain louder and more often. i wish single CIS gendered white men were as enthusiastic to listen to the experience of others when they get excluded.

I think it's because cis-gender white men are privileged, aka. society is already set up to allow their voice to be heard loud and clear whereas minorities are often silenced or oppressed / pretended like they do not exist. Therefore, cis white men know they can complain, and they know they won't be silenced (although I personally question if that's true anymore; single men and especially single fathers have been overshadowed by feminists lately) or subject to violence for speaking up/out. So they do it more often. There's also a sense of entitlement some have.

stoneandy post #31...

I've encountered three types of nudist venues here in the Midwest: swingers, gay/bi men, and "traditional" ones that discriminate against single men. None are suitable for or welcome families like mine.

I visit Cedar Trails from time to time in Peebles, Ohio. This resort is none of those; they welcome everyone including single men and children.

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RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

I visit Cedar Trails from time to time in Peebles, Ohio. This resort is none of those; they welcome everyone including single men and children.

I keep seeing posts from men who dont seem to have any problem gaining entry to naturist clubs, which begs the question, is there something else going on from the ones complaining that they are discriminated against?

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RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

I visit Cedar Trails from time to time in Peebles, Ohio. This resort is none of those; they welcome everyone including single men and children.I keep seeing posts from men who dont seem to have any problem gaining entry to naturist clubs, which begs the question, is there something else going on from the ones complaining that they are discriminated against?

I'm glad there are resorts like Cedar Trails, which is more than six hours away by car from my home. I understand that there are more welcoming resorts on the coasts than in the Midwest. Due to the time and expense I prefer weekend destinations which as less than a 3.5 hour drive by car. Valley View in Wisconsin is the only solo male friendly resort I know of near Chicago. Over years I've researched online and spoken with most local resorts. I can't say it's an exhaustive study, but there has been a strong disconnect. I was told one resort was going to close (it stayed open another 20 years), another required an affidavit from my sons' birth mother allowing them to attend (in violation of my parental rights) and a third that a female chaperone was required. In my most recent experience I was told I had to fill out an online form but was given a link to a form that wouldn't be accepted as complete. When I sent screen shots showing I had filled in everything, they offered me a refund

I don't question I could have driven to resorts and gotten in because I'm clean cut and give a good impression. Since I've worked for years in B2B business development, I'm calm, articulate and professional on the phone. I have a clean record, the gift of persuasion, am polite and tip well too. In many cases I was not outright discriminated against by the gate keepers, but my calls were screened strongly enough that I had no interest in driving hours and not being admitted or feel welcome. I've done enough solo business travel to prefer to stay home when I'm alone. The discrimination that stings the greatest for me is that I haven't been earnest but unable to introduce my sons to social nudism where we live in the US. Therefore they may be casual about clothes but are unlikely to ever become nudists in a social sense. Without youth and customers, businesses and organizations age out and fade away. In conclusion, I am grateful that the resorts have taught me about discrimination, both subtle and overt. I remain a white privileged male and now understand that no one is "taking it too personally" in the face of discrimination.

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RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

I visit Cedar Trails from time to time in Peebles, Ohio. This resort is none of those; they welcome everyone including single men and children.I keep seeing posts from men who dont seem to have any problem gaining entry to naturist clubs, which begs the question, is there something else going on from the ones complaining that they are discriminated against?I'm glad there are resorts like Cedar Trails, which is more than six hours away by car from my home. I understand that there are more welcoming resorts on the coasts than in the Midwest. Due to the time and expense I prefer weekend destinations which as less than a 3.5 hour drive by car. Valley View in Wisconsin is the only solo male friendly resort I know of near Chicago. Over years I've researched online and spoken with most local resorts. I can't say it's an exhaustive study, but there has been a strong disconnect. I was told one resort was going to close (it stayed open another 20 years), another required an affidavit from my sons' birth mother allowing them to attend (in violation of my parental rights) and a third that a female chaperone was required. In my most recent experience I was told I had to fill out an online form but was given a link to a form that wouldn't be accepted as complete. When I sent screen shots showing I had filled in everything, they offered me a refundI don't question I could have driven to resorts and gotten in because I'm clean cut and give a good impression. Since I've worked for years in B2B business development, I'm calm, articulate and professional on the phone. I have a clean record, the gift of persuasion, am polite and tip well too. In many cases I was not outright discriminated against by the gate keepers, but my calls were screened strongly enough that I had no interest in driving hours and not being admitted or feel welcome. I've done enough solo business travel to prefer to stay home when I'm alone. The discrimination that stings the greatest for me is that I haven't been earnest but unable to introduce my sons to social nudism where we live in the US. Therefore they may be casual about clothes but are unlikely to ever become nudists in a social sense. Without youth and customers, businesses and organizations age out and fade away. In conclusion, I am grateful that the resorts have taught me about discrimination, both subtle and overt. I remain a white privileged male and now understand that no one is "taking it too personally" in the face of discrimination.

Have you been to Valley View? Others on this site have said that they enjoyed it.

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RE:Nudism and naturism is all about behavior

i agree it' about behavior too, and it's not always the behavior of the single or solo male visitor or guest . Ofter it is or should be the disgusting behavior of the members of resorts in how they rudely treat others or how the break rule of conduct yet bitch about others justo to make a point of "its them damn single men , If the shoe fits wear it! there is a lot of that out there , you might not have to look farther than your mirror !
On the comment i seen a pushed a lot was that going to resort in europe and even in usa it was mostly cple and a few singles hanging around., that says a lot in it self in how they adress the visitors or guests. and also almost a mute point because if single and solo men are denied entry or even being treat as remotely welocme it surely will be mainly couples you drive the rest off.

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