RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

This topic of debate is the most foolish to me. Just let people use the bathrooms of their preferred gender. It's not that difficult of a concept to wrap your mind around. People say "if you have a penis use the men's room," but a lot of men do not have one, and vice versa for women and vaginas."But what about my safety?" "They just wanna use the opposite restroom to harass us because they're perverts." "Oh, so I can put on a wig and go into the opposite restroom?"I can assure you that every person who is transgender just wants to use the bathrooms for what they're supposed to be used for; going to the bathroom (duh). Everyone who is worried about sexual harassment in the restrooms shouldn't be worried about trans folks. It's the people who justify transgender people using the bathroom as being able to put on a wig to go into the opposite gender bathroom who are the real perverts. Those people are the ones who will most likely try to sexually harass you, not trans folks.Also, if you're worried about a child being sexually harassed in the bathroom, it is far more common for a family member to be the one doing it at home or at family gatherings. Not a random person using the same rest room as them. In some ways, that is your own biases self-reporting what you would do in that situation.Why is it such a hard concept to understand? We're all in there to use the facilities and get out, so why put a gender on it? There are plenty of non-gendered bathrooms that people use on my college campus all the time with no problems. It all comes down to breaking down your biases and prejudice to see that there is no problem at all besides bathrooms having a gender in the first place.

I think you are being naive in the statement about safety/risk by allowing transgender people to use the facilities of the gender they identify with when you combine that with the freedom to self identify. Yes genuine trans people will be using the facilities purely because they need them. And that will be the vast majority.
But there will be a lesser number who exploit the ability to enter, say, a womens restroom with the view of taking advantage and abusing the women in there. Would it still be possible to do that without allowing self identifying trans people to choose which they use? Of course, but it wouldnt be as easy.
I dont know the answer but how do you balance the need to support genuine trans people to live their life as they want to with the risk it might expose other people to by criminals exploiting it.
There have been cases of it happening, and even cases of a self indentifying trans woman being placed in a womens prison and going on to rape and assault other inmates.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

This is why:

https://nypost.com/2021/10/19/amazon-driver-dressed-in-drag-to-take-photos-of-girls-cops/

John aka cobeachbum

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

The original intent of this thread was to comment on the debate as to how to determine in an official capacity which room was the proper one for a transgendered person to use. It has nothing to do with identity or safety, but what physical attribute could be seen. There will always be those who will try to skirt the rules and there will always be predators. Should our society become more enlightened and make nude more normal, this would not be the problem the some people want to make it.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

This topic of debate is the most foolish to me. Just let people use the bathrooms of their preferred gender. It's not that difficult of a concept to wrap your mind around. People say "if you have a penis use the men's room," but a lot of men do not have one, and vice versa for women and vaginas."But what about my safety?" "They just wanna use the opposite restroom to harass us because they're perverts." "Oh, so I can put on a wig and go into the opposite restroom?"I can assure you that every person who is transgender just wants to use the bathrooms for what they're supposed to be used for; going to the bathroom (duh). Everyone who is worried about sexual harassment in the restrooms shouldn't be worried about trans folks. It's the people who justify transgender people using the bathroom as being able to put on a wig to go into the opposite gender bathroom who are the real perverts. Those people are the ones who will most likely try to sexually harass you, not trans folks.Also, if you're worried about a child being sexually harassed in the bathroom, it is far more common for a family member to be the one doing it at home or at family gatherings. Not a random person using the same rest room as them. In some ways, that is your own biases self-reporting what you would do in that situation.Why is it such a hard concept to understand? We're all in there to use the facilities and get out, so why put a gender on it? There are plenty of non-gendered bathrooms that people use on my college campus all the time with no problems. It all comes down to breaking down your biases and prejudice to see that there is no problem at all besides bathrooms having a gender in the first place.I think you are being naive in the statement about safety/risk by allowing transgender people to use the facilities of the gender they identify with when you combine that with the freedom to self identify. Yes genuine trans people will be using the facilities purely because they need them. And that will be the vast majority.But there will be a lesser number who exploit the ability to enter, say, a womens restroom with the view of taking advantage and abusing the women in there. Would it still be possible to do that without allowing self identifying trans people to choose which they use? Of course, but it wouldnt be as easy.I dont know the answer but how do you balance the need to support genuine trans people to live their life as they want to with the risk it might expose other people to by criminals exploiting it.There have been cases of it happening, and even cases of a self indentifying trans woman being placed in a womens prison and going on to rape and assault other inmates.

I see your argument here. To this I say we shouldn't punish all trans people for anecdotal events and things that they have nothing to do with. Criminals who will "exploit" this will also do this regardless of the rules. Only the real criminals should be punished for these crimes.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

The original intent of this thread was to comment on the debate as to how to determine in an official capacity which room was the proper one for a transgendered person to use. It has nothing to do with identity or safety, but what physical attribute could be seen. There will always be those who will try to skirt the rules and there will always be predators. Should our society become more enlightened and make nude more normal, this would not be the problem the some people want to make it.

I would say this has everything to do with identity and safety. But sure, in terms of locker rooms it also has to do with physical attributes. I would personally say that trans people should be able to use the facilities they feel aligns with their gender, period. We're all nudists on this site, so seeing any sort of nudity shouldn't come as much of a surprise to us.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

Whichever facility they use, they should look and play the part. If the male looks the part of female they should also sit during use so they don't stand out.
My opinion does not include p-k schools. They are well defined. If necessary for schools, a single use could be made available for any student. PE showers can create a whole different response.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

Yes genuine trans people will be using the facilities purely because they need them. And that will be the vast majority.But there will be a lesser number who exploit the ability to enter, say, a womens restroom with the view of taking advantage and abusing the women in there. Would it still be possible to do that without allowing self identifying trans people to choose which they use? Of course, but it wouldnt be as easy.

As a father, safety is always on my mind, especially related to children. However, I think it's wrong to criminalize or to focus on labels or identities rather than specific behaviors. Predators come in all guises, and the ones who get away with the most heinous crimes typically slide under the radar under the guise of most respected and least predictable. That's why I follow my instincts and understand that a well-loved "Pastor Bob" is statistically more likely to prey on my sons than a 6'3" trans woman. However, it's even more plausible that both have positive mission, goodwill and love in their hearts, so I'll look for that more than paying attention to their color nail polish.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

Yes genuine trans people will be using the facilities purely because they need them. And that will be the vast majority.But there will be a lesser number who exploit the ability to enter, say, a womens restroom with the view of taking advantage and abusing the women in there. Would it still be possible to do that without allowing self identifying trans people to choose which they use? Of course, but it wouldnt be as easy.As a father, safety is always on my mind, especially related to children. However, I think it's wrong to criminalize or to focus on labels or identities rather than specific behaviors. Predators come in all guises, and the ones who get away with the most heinous crimes typically slide under the radar under the guise of most respected and least predictable. That's why I follow my instincts and understand that a well-loved "Pastor Bob" is statistically more likely to prey on my sons than a 6'3" trans woman. However, it's even more plausible that both have positive mission, goodwill and love in their hearts, so I'll look for that more than paying attention to their color nail polish.

As a father and a husband safety is on my mind as well, and all I can say is that both my wife and my daughter have severe misgivings about moves to allow people to use the facilities for which they identify.
Interesting that I cant see any posts from women saying yes we are happy with it. The posts all seem to be from men. I would say it is very easy, as a man, to say that you are comfortable with this and wouldnt have any safety concerns about self identifying trans people being able to use the restrooms for the gender they identify with
I would suggest that the concerns that really count and need to be taken into consideration are those of women. They are the ones that will be impacted most. A biological male wont feel the same potential threat from a trans person using the male restroom as woman might from a trans person using a womens restroom.
It is the women that need to be heard on this. Not the men.

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

I don't want anyone to feel upset. If someone is facing challenges with gender didentity, I don't want to make it worse.

However, we live in an era where many young males fail to have an identity as a young male and understand what it means. This is more of a problem than just showering, naked in a locker room, and peeing in a urinal.

I ask the question if this makes it worse. How more difficult will it be to learn what it means to be male if a male body is not a qualification.

That being said, I would tend to suggest that for anyone under 18, i.e. schools, family spas such as Korean spas, etc. if one does not look like the gender of identity, one should not be naked in that locker room or restroom.

In an adult setting, I am not sure.

Besides the fear of predators. I want a boy or girl growing up to be able to know what it means to be a boy or girl.

I recognize this sounds tough on the transgender. I pose the question without having a solution. How do we accomodate the much rarer transgender without causing confusion and difficulties for the overwhelming majority of those whose gender identiy matches the genitals they were born with?

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RE:Transgender rest and locker rooms

I don't want anyone to feel upset. If someone is facing challenges with gender didentity, I don't want to make it worse.However, we live in an era where many young males fail to have an identity as a young male and understand what it means. This is more of a problem than just showering, naked in a locker room, and peeing in a urinal.I ask the question if this makes it worse. How more difficult will it be to learn what it means to be male if a male body is not a qualification.That being said, I would tend to suggest that for anyone under 18, i.e. schools, family spas such as Korean spas, etc. if one does not look like the gender of identity, one should not be naked in that locker room or restroom.In an adult setting, I am not sure.Besides the fear of predators. I want a boy or girl growing up to be able to know what it means to be a boy or girl.I recognize this sounds tough on the transgender. I pose the question without having a solution. How do we accomodate the much rarer transgender without causing confusion and difficulties for the overwhelming majority of those whose gender identiy matches the genitals they were born with?

This prompted a question about male identity even among those who are not trans. Has our society made being male somehow wrong? The courts still tend to award custody of children to the mother in divorce cases. Is there enough positive male influence in the lives of these kids? As a grandpa and a stepgrandpa, I am seeing differences in what is expected as appropriate behavior. My grandson is from a two parent home. My stepgrandsons are being raised by a mother and grandmother. This of course is anecdotal, but I see more female influence on kids where in school most elementary teachers are women. Could there be systemic bias here?

I have empathy for anyone who feels out of place either by physical or emotional standards. I think all of us have been there to some extent in some situations. It is too bad that we cannot be comfortable the way we are because society tells us how to be. I write with some experience but have learned that it is easier to be what I want to be as I get older.

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