So if someone wants to describe their sexual encounters as 'bi' then that's their call, not anyone else's.Exactly why should feel the need define someone elses sexual orientation or gender identity for them and why should it matter
It matters because you are giving them a needed reality check that could do the kindness of saving their health or even lives, while also maintaining respectful due to the blood, sweat, tears, and even lives of those who shouldered the burdens and cleared the paths that allow them to so freely explore and define themselves now.
Silence Equals Death remains one of the greatest slogans ever created and still holds true today.
1. It really isn't fair that some are allowed to perform a perpetual linguistic trick that allows them to indulge in the same behaviors that are indeed gay while never having to "pay their dues" for the privilege
- or rather THINKING they are exempt from any payment when the reality is
2. They may pay a tremendous price with their health or lives if they allow themselves to be fooled as they believe they are fooling others into thinking they are engaging in anything other than gay behavior and thus subject to the same physical pitfalls.
It matters because you are giving them a needed reality check that could do the kindness of saving their health or even lives, while also maintaining respectful due to the blood, sweat, tears, and even lives of those who shouldered the burdens and cleared the paths that allow them to so freely explore and define themselves now.They may pay a tremendous price with their health or lives if they allow themselves to be fooled as they believe they are fooling others into thinking they are engaging in anything other than gay behavior and thus subject to the same physical pitfalls.
I respect the idea of honoring pioneers and defenders of freedoms and rights that are easy to take for granted.
First you speak of paths that allow people to freely explore and define themselves. Then you speak of specific gay behaviors.
I am against hypocrisy, but I'm also against defining people, including myself and others, based on behaviors. There are usually a set of personality traits and a tribal affiliation with labels. I hold two passports and can call myself Swedish and American. I eat meatballs and herring and have that look, but consider Swedish-American as mixture of the worst of both cultures and don't like that label.
Is it wrong for a man to call himself homosexual but not gay? Are men who masturbate masturbators or normal men? Are those who try gay sex gay for that moment or gay for life? Can we disconnect sexual behaviors from sexual identities? Can risky behavior, whether sexual or vehicular, be identified as a behavior only? Can men and women be sexual beings and honor others as fellow sexual beings, all unique expressions of love, intimacy and sexuality? If so, how we can we honor them as such?
It matters because you are giving them a needed reality check that could do the kindness of saving their health or even lives, while also maintaining respectful due to the blood, sweat, tears, and even lives of those who shouldered the burdens and cleared the paths that allow them to so freely explore and define themselves now.They may pay a tremendous price with their health or lives if they allow themselves to be fooled as they believe they are fooling others into thinking they are engaging in anything other than gay behavior and thus subject to the same physical pitfalls.I respect the idea of honoring pioneers and defenders of freedoms and rights that are easy to take for granted.First you speak of paths that allow people to freely explore and define themselves. Then you speak of specific gay behaviors.I am against hypocrisy, but I'm also against defining people, including myself and others, based on behaviors. There are usually a set of personality traits and a tribal affiliation with labels. I hold two passports and can call myself Swedish and American. I eat meatballs and herring and have that look, but consider Swedish-American as mixture of the worst of both cultures and don't like that label.Is it wrong for a man to call himself homosexual but not gay? Are men who masturbate masturbators or normal men? Are those who try gay sex gay for that moment or gay for life? Can we disconnect sexual behaviors from sexual identities? Can risky behavior, whether sexual or vehicular, be identified as a behavior only? Can men and women be sexual beings and honor others as fellow sexual beings, all unique expressions of love, intimacy and sexuality? If so, how we can we honor them as such?
Look, I am all for the philosophical approach but the post isn't about your ideas it's about common usage of language and I should note that TN is not the only site, they just got the post. So what I want you to grasp is not only the historical but the present, and the way in which binaries are created, maintained and reinforced in our culture and subcultures. The deconstruction of the oppression of categoricals is certainly cool but there's far worse oppression left in the still institutional relegation of some bodies into the bad category and the bodies have the practices and the two are not easily extracted as one might feel is warranted. Human society is messy. Also, as long as the thing that is being erased is stigmatized it must be destigmatized before it is unnamed. You can't fix stigma which has no obvious referent it becomes slippery and hidden. I want to see men saying they have no issue with the guys who identify as gay and not make crude homophobic remarks in front of certain friends before they start claiming M4M sex as not gay and theirs in a way that isn't really defined just slippery. And while this sounds like I am ranting for me, it is for them. Of course everyone goes through their own time and path to growth, and yes, self define however you want but at the end of the day, we're not unicorns, lilies or wankel rotary engines as much as we might want to say so, and the point of the discussion is not to say "you there, don't do that" it's to say that language has impact and this seems to be the wrong way to handle this issue , which is homophobia and the fear of being called gay when you're looking for cock. No one should suffer that, but the best solution is not the one that has evolved, how do I know? Lived it.
I love the idea of honoring the being and the body and the spirit. Let me know when you find these leprechauns because I have been searching for them (I am being facetious, many of us are travelling and many wise travellers exist), and I would love to be able to share myself in a way I don't always get to because of the way of the world, but until then I gotta gay for a day or more, it's the label I chose to express a political stance and that is as attractive to some as it is not to others.
So if someone wants to describe their sexual encounters as 'bi' then that's their call, not anyone else's.Exactly why should feel the need define someone elses sexual orientation or gender identity for them and why should it matter
One, I am a researcher who works in this area and a community member. One more time, this wasn't about singling out 'a' person but talking about the way language is used. We don't unfortunately have absolute power over word meaning. Language is a collective effort and the meaning of a word is primarily defined by what the group says it means. Science is even more precise in how it seeks to define. So while I am absolutely supportive of self discovery and growth, I don't need to agree that it's good to self define in any way possible and that is that. It just isn't true.
I love the idea of honoring the being and the body and the spirit. Let me know when you find these leprechauns because I have been searching for them (I am being facetious, many of us are travelling and many wise travellers exist), and I would love to be able to share myself in a way I don't always get to because of the way of the world, but until then I gotta gay for a day or more, it's the label I chose to express a political stance and that is as attractive to some as it is not to others.
This thread is enlightening to me. I get it that my musings about sexual beings and not putting demographic labels solely based on behavior is not the way of the world, nor may it respect the reality of those walking non-normative paths. At the same time, I will claim a leprechaun status as I genuinely want my brothers to share themselves as they wish under whatever (or lack of) label they choose.
People of color have helped me to understand my white privilege, and I am grateful to be made aware of a similar hetero bias. I grew up in a bubble where such things were off my radar, and sometimes I feel like my understanding is a bit too little, too late. But if I can at least help my teen sons have a clue to grow up and into a diverse and wonderful brotherhood of men, then I'm getting something right, and it's all good.
Let's try to separate two things.
First thing: Labels for sexual episodes.
The OP began by talking about the label applied to a particular sexual encounter, specifically references by mostly straight-identified, bi-curious, etc. men to having "bi" sex, by which they mean sex with men. And yes, this gets said a lot. I notice it, and share the OP's sense that there's something a little off about it.
Second thing: Labels for people.
A person may identify - label - themselves pretty much as they want, which is why the LBT--etc list of initials keeps getting longer.
I identify as gay because I'm married to a man, in a committed relationship, and because I move socially in the gay community. I suppose in a clinical sense I'm bi, but to say so would make it seem as if I were looking for sex with women, which I am not. (Note the "committed relationship" bit, above.) If I were to have sex with a man, that would be gay (or to be really careful, homosexual) sex. If I were to have sex with a woman, that would be straight (or to be really careful, heterosexual) sex. And the same exact thing is true for a person who labels themselves as straight, or bi, or whatever. Whenever two conventionally gendered beings have sex, it's either heterosexual or homosexual, in common English straight or gay. Period. There really isn't such a thing as bi sex between two such people.
So when a guy talks about having "bi" sex, meaning sex with another guy, yeah, he's dodging the use of the words "gay" and "homosexual," and gay guys really notice the evasion.
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