Yep this is how the my opinion equal fact folks operate. Unable to engage a real argument the diminish reasoned argument as irrelevant and unnecessary. The only education awareness or information considered valid is That which validates my opinion. Actual history irrelevant, research and science irrelevant thoughtful judgement based on verifiable facts for multiple sources irrelevant. Name calling relevant, knowledge bashing relevant, only my perspective opinion relevant.
When viewed through a historical lens all these things point to a devolution of society and how social movements die. What that means for naturism is simply is a shrinking pool of people of participating because they actually care about things like facts, reality and the perspective of others. But none of that matters my opinion equals fact folks because they arent really in it for the movement or others. The is no consideration of how their actions opinions impact the experience of others. I am right and the truth be damned, history be damned, facts be damned. I am right because I said it, it is so.
You just proved my point you quote just out of context with not actual reference to back it up mixing opinion belief with offhand quotes from unnamed sources with any sense of what The relevance of the quote is to your point or how it supports your assertion SMH
When you write that I feel you are being dismissive, inappropriate and unfair. What do you feel and what is your personal experience? That's what I want to know.
First I am owning my interpretation. Second, I cited my source as the German language wikipedia. Here' the link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freik(UMLAUT O)rperkultur, but you need to figure out how to type UMLAUT O, which is not transferable to this site. Third, you are holding this thread and me to an irrrelevant academic standard. I'm not one to hold wikipedia as the ultimate source of authority, but find it a good go-to for a quick overview of a topic.
My impression is you're not actually interested in reading the footnotes of a German language websites, nor do I imagine that you care compare the English language FFK with German language FKK which highlights the role of culture. For example, why does the German version mention the presence of "racist nude culture" during the Nazi era, with statues and picture books to glorify Nazi ideals, wheras the English version just references Hermann Gring''s 1933 edict? Original culture or source material tends to be more nuanced. Lastly, I shared my personal experience, motivation and interpretation, which is ultjmately what drives all authors, research and sources to both inform, agree and disagree with our views. Nonethesless, here are the footnotes / sources with hyperlinks included in the online version:
Grnicka, B. (2016). Nakedness, Shame, and Embarrassment: A Long-Term Sociological Perspective (Vol. 12). Springer
Holmes, J. S. (2006). Bare bodies, beaches, and boundaries: Abjected outsiders and rearticulation at the nude beach. Sexuality and Culture
Nacktsein in Deutschland Deutsche Welle
Please don't hide behind the clothes of academic posturing. What do you feel and what is your personal experience about the line between nudism and sexuality? I believe you are intelligent, articulate and vulnerable enough to share more and wish you well.
Hau gives detailed and creditable societal and political perspectives which are often lacking in rose-tinted potted histories of naturism. You are of course right in what you say about a reaction to the health declines caused by the industrial revolution and poverty. This was led by intellectuals and sociologists and shared by the more affluent in society in a time and place when / where more liberal views to sex were in the ascendant; when even male and female homosexuality were enjoying increased acceptance in cooler tranches of society. So, even apart from the Freikorperkultur movement, Germany was moving very discernibly in a sexually more liberal direction. The Freikorperkultur Movement, while recognised for its health benefits, didnt grow up in a societal vacuum and it was also connected that momentum and, lets be honest, with both good and bad developments in German society. These included so called racial purity and antisemitism to name just two negatives. Freikorperkulturs celebration of physical beauty extended to more than exercise, dance and abstinence from alcohol, tobacco and animal products. Its liberalism scandalised some in German society and photographic publications which were remarkably popular(!) such as LOTTE HERRLICHs Edle Nacktheit" (1920). Twenty pictures of nude women.Rolf" (1924). Thirty shots of Lotte Herrlich's growing son.Neue Aktstudien" (1924). Twelve pictures of naturism.Seliges Nacktsein" (1927).Der schne nackte Mensch, Bd. 1: Das Weib" (The beautiful naked man, vol 1: The woman. 1928). AndDer weibliche Akt" (1928). Pictures of women.... were often viewed as pornography and were noticeably frequently published as collections of one gender that might appeal to a particular readership. Certainly boundaries in the area of sexual morality were being more than pushed and it was in this context that the Freikorperkultur was temporarily banned by the Nazis because of their disapproval of its liberal agenda. Oh sorry ... A Primary source?? ...Quote: One of the greatest dangers for German culture and morality is the so-called nudity movement. ..Unquote ( Herman Goring : Nazi edict banning Freikorperkultur 1933 )
Thanks for taking to time to go and do research about the subject I appreciate the effort. I fear there is a fatal flaw in your argument. The fatal flaw in argument is the attribution of sexuality to the presence of magazines showing pictures of naked women and the subsequent conflagration of that with the FKK movement. The two things existed and continue to exist in parallel for many years in both Europe and America. The existence of the two movement can exist in parallel can occur without them being one and the same or even supporting each other.
The historic record As articulated by the writers already mentioned and many more shows the FKK movement had a disTo NT ethic thats focused more on health and well being and freedom from the eroticism of the naked body. That is indisputable. See Naked Germany ch7 sex Race and Nudism for one example of which I speak. And I quote "Most importantly the body would be stripped of its eroticism enabling Germans to reform sex and gender." Naked Germany ch7 Pg 135
It was the separation of sexuality and nudity which drove the FKK movement affirm the inherent natural nature of the naked body in German society despite the religious and social constrains. It was the prioritization of health and well being and the separation of nudity and sexuality to birth non sexual back to nature movement that allows mixed gender groupings, and the inclusion of people with various sexual orientations like naturist pioneer Jan Gay. Gay's book on going naked was published in the US under naturist imprint. Gay also authored books on homosexuality and a childrens book with her partner Zhenya. To listen to some one might think FKK and naturist movements were anti home sexual from the start and it was the opening up of free sex movement that made room for that which is the legacy others seem to be following. It is my conclusion from years of ongoing research reading with preconceived interest that the reverse is true. Works like a a Brief History of Nakedness and Naked:A cultural history of American Nudism among others inform that conclusion. Both some to the conclusion that the connection/association between nudism/naturism sought by the free sex movement which emerged in the shadow of naturism in Europe and America did more to help derail the acceptance of naturism beyond its early success.
I would leave you with these two perspectives one a past naturist writer philosopher and the other from a current academic on the inherent conflict between free sex nudity movement and Fkk naturist movement.
It is therefore necessary to understand naturism as a new system of production of values
The rehabilitation of the human body
The vital need for close contact with nature
The ability to self-control
The management of looks (the gaze)
Non-discrimination
Naturism as a laboratory of democracy Marc Alain Descamps
Naturist nudity is not interpreted through the prism of eroticism by naturists, because it does not have sex as an aim. Aleksandra Herman : Naturist utopia and libertine rebellion. Intuitive laws in conflict
You just proved my point you quote just out of context with not actual reference to back it up mixing opinion belief with offhand quotes from unnamed sources with any sense of what The relevance of the quote is to your point or how it supports your assertion SMHWhen you write that I feel you are being dismissive, inappropriate and unfair. What do you feel and what is your personal experience? That's what I want to know.First I am owning my interpretation. Second, I cited my source as the German language wikipedia. Here' the link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freik(UMLAUT O)rperkultur, but you need to figure out how to type UMLAUT O, which is not transferable to this site. Third, you are holding this thread and me to an irrrelevant academic standard. I'm not one to hold wikipedia as the ultimate source of authority, but find it a good go-to for a quick overview of a topic.Grnicka, B. (2016). Nakedness, Shame, and Embarrassment: A Long-Term Sociological Perspective (Vol. 12). SpringerHolmes, J. S. (2006). Bare bodies, beaches, and boundaries: Abjected outsiders and rearticulation at the nude beach. Sexuality and CultureNacktsein in Deutschland Deutsche WellePlease don't hide behind the clothes of academic posturing. What do you feel and what is your personal experience about the line between nudism and sexuality? I believe you are intelligent, articulate and vulnerable enough to share more and wish you well.
Thanks for sharing the sources above i will definitely take a look I love to get new sources on the subject. You are correct I cannot read the original German language sources but I cite writings German pioneers and others who were present in Europe at the birth of the FKK movement. Since I was not there and neither were you my experience today is not germane to the conversation. I do not cite or use Wikipedia as a primary source because it is not. Wikipedia is a tertiary source sometimes secondary and definitely not definitive. I try to cite multiple secondary or primary sources usually books which I have spent hundreds maybe even thousands on (many are out of print) so I can pursue an objective not subjective engagement of the topic.
While I understand that experience is the currency of our post post modern era it is my observation that when the discussion is driven purely by feeling and experience without any balance of rational, objective sources of information discourse devolves into name calling as has occurred here. I am disappointed you feel that is unfair and dismissive however if you look at the course of this conversation and others like it you may see the credible of my perspective.
I appreciate the shift from the usual tone of this particular conversation and wish there were more like it. Thanks again for the sources I will be adding them to my reading list and hopefully will get to it as soon as I complete Naked Germany. Let me offer an olive branch to you in response to your specific effort to engage. I run a site which has the opportunity to share discussion on weighty matters such as this. If you would like to write an opinion piece for publication I am open to publishing such a piece to engage a broader segment of naturist beyond this site which is extremely limited
The rehabilitation of the human bodyThe vital need for close contact with natureThe ability to self-controlThe management of looks (the gaze)Non-discriminationNaturism as a laboratory of democracy Marc Alain DescampsNaturist nudity is not interpreted through the prism of eroticism by naturists, because it does not have sex as an aim. Aleksandra Herman
Great stuff! I agree that naturism does not have sex as an aim, nor does it disregard sexuality. By focusing on healthy diet, exercise, sunshine, fresh air and self-control, it speaks for balanced, wellness in living. We all can improve ourselves on those terms, best inspired by personal motivation.
I appreciate the shift from the usual tone of this particular conversation and wish there were more like it. Thanks again for the sources I will be adding them to my reading list and hopefully will get to it as soon as I complete Naked Germany. Let me offer an olive branch to you in response to your specific effort to engage. I run a site which has the opportunity to share discussion on weighty matters such as this. If you would like to write an opinion piece for publication I am open to publishing such a piece to engage a broader segment of naturist beyond this site which is extremely limited
I don't think a thread like this can be held to rigourous academic standards. First it needs to be able to copy umlauts and hyperlinks. I speak fluent German and majored in history (BA) and find these topics fascinating. Please post your website and let's continue the civil dialogue!
I don't think a thread like this can be held to rigourous academic standards. First it needs to be able to copy umlauts and hyperlinks. I speak fluent German and majored in history (BA) and find these topics fascinating. Please post your website and let's continue the civil dialogue!
The issue for me is simple I just want people to stop making blanket about naturism and nudism that have no basis in fact. As you can see from some responses people will fit tooth and nail to present their opinion as fact. I on the other had will fight for everyone's right to speak their own opinion will not support efforts to present those opinions as fact. To avoid personal attacks I stick to facts. The books I mentioned as sources were not academic journals but books written by actual naturists. The point of doing that was two fold 1) To point out the difference between opinions about naturism and nudism and facts about naturism and nudism. Always more than one source so it isnt just one person view. 2) To show that often in the discussion about what naturism is today empty vessels make the most noise.
Every so often there a few people who surface who are capable of having a reasoned dialogue rather than skirt the issues and avoid counter pointS to their opinions. You seem to be once such person. We should certainly be able have such a conversation without turning it into an anti-academic diatribe as some have.
. Bottom line whenever people new to naturism/ nudism want to brand it as their own and call it something that it is Now I will speak out and speak up using all the tools available to me. They can do the same and I encourage them to do.
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