RE:The churches views on nudism

I heard an interesting interpretation of Genesis.

Before they ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve were immortal. And because they were immortal, they had no need to procreate. Hence, sex didn't matter. They were like nude children, unaware of lust. It was only after they ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge that they became mortal. So the only way the species could survive was by procreation. And that's when they hit puberty, and they became aware of their naughty bits. And that led to feelings of arousal, which caused them shame, and that's when they started using clothing (fig leaves at first) to cover themselves up to help control their lust.

In that interpretation, puberty is when we lose our innocence and become sexual beings, and eating the fruit was a metaphor for that.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

So God gave us sex so that we could perpetuate our species like other animals, instead of being immortal? That fits in with the second of the two creation stories in Genesis ... the one that begins with Genesis 2. (In that story, God doesn't say "be fruitful and multiply. He only says that in the first story.)

The Genesis 2 story goes straight from Eve's creation to the temptation in the Garden. Eve tells the serpent that God told her "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." So Adam and Eve were immortal up to that point. And even though they were naked all the time, it was only after they ate the fruit that they became aware of the fact, and embarrassed by it. Yeah, that's what puberty does for you.

And it's only after they ate the fruit that God starts talking about them having children and dying.

I like that theory.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

Why would anyone even consider the views of the Roman Catholic Church - a discredited international organisation that has perpetrated rape and murder of children ( as well as gross crimes against adults ) on a massive scale, and continues to actively shield child rapists from prosecution thus facilitating and encouraging further crimes?

If anyone is offended by this Im not sorry - you should be... offended by the facts rather than my stating of them.

If you know the facts ( and they are proven and irrefutable ) and continue to support the Roman Catholic Church then you are also supporting child rape and the denial of justice to its countless victims. No PR spins under the current or recent papacies can successfully conceal the indefensible continued refusal to hand over evidential documentation that would result in further scandals and clerical prosecutions. This merely adds new hypocrisy to old and endangers more children by sending papal and institutional signals of collegiality and protection to currently offending paedophile priests.

Am I saying that one cannot support the Roman Catholic Church and be a Christian? That would be a shocking statement wouldnt it! But ... Yes.... I am prepared to say that and challenge what might be termed Fur Coat Faith - by which I mean a faith thats like a fur coat - the owner wants the comfort and is prepared to overlook obvious suffering in order to enjoy the warm feelings and comfort.

Perpetration and continued cover-ups of the gravest crimes against the innocent are simply not reconcilable with the teachings of The Christ. And no man claiming to be Christs representative on Earth can serve The Christ while simultaneously presiding over obfuscation of the truth, evasion of justice, and sustaining a culture of collegial alacrity for those who have committed or do commit gross crimes against children. The PR spinning ( designed to obfuscate a continuation of business as usual ) around these issues which commenced under John Paul II and continues to the present day only underlines the shameless, cynical hypocrisy of an organisation thats rotten to the core.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

We can still be people of faith and live our lives by a reasonable set of rules that keep us from hurting ourselves and others. There is no defense for the abuse that has taken place nor the coverups that have perpetuated the abuse. The abuse that has been publicized by members of the Catholic Church should not go unrecognized, but it should also be publicized that the crimes committed are not exclusive the the Church and have found their way into many other organizations and denominations.
Members of church hierarchy and their congregations have views on nudity. Many if not most are against having naked neighbors, and consider nudity as sinful. That is because of the almost standard conception that nudity equals sex. We know that not to be true, and whether or not we seek the approval of any organization , religious or secular. for public nudity, it is how we behave as individuals that matters the most. We can still be part of an organization that has done wrong, but if we remain a part of that group, we must be willing to work toward change for the better.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

Why would anyone even consider the views of the Roman Catholic Church - a discredited international organisation that has perpetrated rape and murder of children ( as well as gross crimes against adults ) on a massive scale, and continues to actively shield child rapists from prosecution thus facilitating and encouraging further crimes?If anyone is offended by this Im not sorry - you should be... offended by the facts rather than my stating of them.If you know the facts ( and they are proven and irrefutable ) and continue to support the Roman Catholic Church then you are also supporting child rape and the denial of justice to its countless victims. No PR spins under the current or recent papacies can successfully conceal the indefensible continued refusal to hand over evidential documentation that would result in further scandals and clerical prosecutions. This merely adds new hypocrisy to old and endangers more children by sending papal and institutional signals of collegiality and protection to currently offending paedophile priests.Am I saying that one cannot support the Roman Catholic Church and be a Christian? That would be a shocking statement wouldnt it! But ... Yes.... I am prepared to say that and challenge what might be termed Fur Coat Faith - by which I mean a faith thats like a fur coat - the owner wants the comfort and is prepared to overlook obvious suffering in order to enjoy the warm feelings and comfort.Perpetration and continued cover-ups of the gravest crimes against the innocent are simply not reconcilable with the teachings of The Christ. And no man claiming to be Christs representative on Earth can serve The Christ while simultaneously presiding over obfuscation of the truth, evasion of justice, and sustaining a culture of collegial alacrity for those who have committed or do commit gross crimes against children. The PR spinning ( designed to obfuscate a continuation of business as usual ) around these issues which commenced under John Paul II and continues to the present day only underlines the shameless, cynical hypocrisy of an organisation thats rotten to the core.
While I agree the situation was horrible and should not have happened, two things need to be kept in mind.
Even after all of the publicity and encouraging victims to come forward, the number of priests who have been accused or even suspected is less than 5% of the total.
Since the reforms introduced by John Paul II almost 20 years ago, the new incidences of abuse discovered has dropped significantly.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

Why would anyone even consider the views of the Roman Catholic Church - a discredited international organisation that has perpetrated rape and murder of children ( as well as gross crimes against adults ) on a massive scale, and continues to actively shield child rapists from prosecution thus facilitating and encouraging further crimes?If anyone is offended by this Im not sorry - you should be... offended by the facts rather than my stating of them.If you know the facts ( and they are proven and irrefutable ) and continue to support the Roman Catholic Church then you are also supporting child rape and the denial of justice to its countless victims. No PR spins under the current or recent papacies can successfully conceal the indefensible continued refusal to hand over evidential documentation that would result in further scandals and clerical prosecutions. This merely adds new hypocrisy to old and endangers more children by sending papal and institutional signals of collegiality and protection to currently offending paedophile priests.Am I saying that one cannot support the Roman Catholic Church and be a Christian? That would be a shocking statement wouldnt it! But ... Yes.... I am prepared to say that and challenge what might be termed Fur Coat Faith - by which I mean a faith thats like a fur coat - the owner wants the comfort and is prepared to overlook obvious suffering in order to enjoy the warm feelings and comfort.Perpetration and continued cover-ups of the gravest crimes against the innocent are simply not reconcilable with the teachings of The Christ. And no man claiming to be Christs representative on Earth can serve The Christ while simultaneously presiding over obfuscation of the truth, evasion of justice, and sustaining a culture of collegial alacrity for those who have committed or do commit gross crimes against children. The PR spinning ( designed to obfuscate a continuation of business as usual ) around these issues which commenced under John Paul II and continues to the present day only underlines the shameless, cynical hypocrisy of an organisation thats rotten to the core.

Totally true. Also everybody knows that typical person who pretends to be religious, attend church but their acts are worse than any regular person who do not show off their belief.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

While I agree the situation was horrible and should not have happened, two things need to be kept in mind.Even after all of the publicity and encouraging victims to come forward, the number of priests who have been accused or even suspected is less than 5% of the total.Since the reforms introduced by John Paul II almost 20 years ago, the new incidences of abuse discovered has dropped significantly.

The kindest word I can muster to describe this response is disingenuous.

You wrote of encouraging victims to come forward as if it were easy and not adding pain on pain. This dismisses them and the severity of their suffering. You carefully describe the number of priests who have been accused rather than the number who are guilty. And that figure is an unworthy and irrelevant fabrication with no basis in fact.

NO meaningful reforms happened under John Paul II or any subsequent pontiff - only further lies and cynical hypocrisy for PR purposes.

And how can you infer ( but interestingly not state! ) that the incidence of child rape and murder have decreased when the cover up continues to conceal the full facts and shield offenders?? You chose your words carefully in citing ..new incidences of abuse DISCOVERED .. Could this not be due to more effective deviousness on the part of perpetrators and their Vatican protectors whose focus has been demonstrably one of evasion of justice ( and shameless PR spin ) rather than avoidance of further harm to existing or new victims?

The full magnitude of what is irrefutably massive systemic criminality isnt known. And that fact is in no small part due to the consistent dishonesty and evasions of successive pontiffs and the institutions of the Roman Catholic Church around the world.

The cynical, touchy feely, public relations crafted rhetoric disgracefully employed by Francis and his disgraced ( even when sainted ) predecessors has failed to disguise what they have done and what they have failed to do .... and even more notably what they have repeatedly refused to do . This is an insult to victims ( survivors and non-survivors ) and decent people of faith who have been, and continue to be, betrayed.

Additionally I find your apparent tolerance relating to the ( phoney ) statistic you quote shocking. Even if it were true ... Five per cent?! One in twenty priests? A child rapist?? You think we should all take some sort of comfort from that?? Seriously??? A lesser practice of child rape can be considered acceptable??? Is there any act known to humanity more evil than the rape or murder of a child?

Inadvertently you have illustrated exactly what I wrote about in my last reply in this thread - so utterly reminiscent of the Fur Coat Faith I described.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

Remember when this thread was about nudity and religon? I do.

I'm not going to defend the Catholic Church, or any church, for the misdeeds that their elders have done. But it doesn't have much relevance to what this thread was about.

But I thought of something today. Every crucifix I've ever seen has Jesus in some sort of loincloth to hide his crotch. But we know from other sources that people who were crucified were usually stripped naked. In fact, there is a tale in the New Testament of how the soldiers stripped Jesus and cast lots for his clothes. So if the crucifixes were to be accurate, they'd have a naked Jesus. But they don't.

Obviously the traditional iconography was a sop to medieval mentalities regarding what was supposed to be seen in a church. And it goes right up to the present day. When Jeffrey Hunter played the role of Jesus in King of Kings, the producers thought his chest was too hairy in the crucifixion scenes. So they shaved his chest and re-shot the scenes. Evidently a hirsute Jesus was too authentic for them.

But it's all academic to me. My church is the woods, and the woods don't care if I'm as naked as every other creature there.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

I have seen a crucifix of a naked Jesus and the Sistine Chapel ceiling does have nude figures painted on it. My memory suggests that John Paul II even wrote that nudity is acceptable, and I know of at least one priest who sleeps nude.

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RE:The churches views on nudism

Why would anyone even consider the views of the Roman Catholic Church - a discredited international organisation that has perpetrated rape and murder of children ( as well as gross crimes against adults ) on a massive scale, and continues to actively shield child rapists from prosecution thus facilitating and encouraging further crimes?If anyone is offended by this Im not sorry - you should be... offended by the facts rather than my stating of them.If you know the facts ( and they are proven and irrefutable ) and continue to support the Roman Catholic Church then you are also supporting child rape and the denial of justice to its countless victims. No PR spins under the current or recent papacies can successfully conceal the indefensible continued refusal to hand over evidential documentation that would result in further scandals and clerical prosecutions. This merely adds new hypocrisy to old and endangers more children by sending papal and institutional signals of collegiality and protection to currently offending paedophile priests.Am I saying that one cannot support the Roman Catholic Church and be a Christian? That would be a shocking statement wouldnt it! But ... Yes.... I am prepared to say that and challenge what might be termed Fur Coat Faith - by which I mean a faith thats like a fur coat - the owner wants the comfort and is prepared to overlook obvious suffering in order to enjoy the warm feelings and comfort.Perpetration and continued cover-ups of the gravest crimes against the innocent are simply not reconcilable with the teachings of The Christ. And no man claiming to be Christs representative on Earth can serve The Christ while simultaneously presiding over obfuscation of the truth, evasion of justice, and sustaining a culture of collegial alacrity for those who have committed or do commit gross crimes against children. The PR spinning ( designed to obfuscate a continuation of business as usual ) around these issues which commenced under John Paul II and continues to the present day only underlines the shameless, cynical hypocrisy of an organisation thats rotten to the core.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The majority of Catholic priests are sincere dedicated men of God. I know quite a few of them. Some were horrible despicable men and certainly reflects badly on the Catholic church but don't let that small minority define the church.

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